Pillar by Pillar: An Expert Guide to Sustainable Marketing and SEO – 91 Days Success Podcast

Summary in Bullet Points

  • Pillar-based marketing focuses on identifying markets for organic search traffic and understanding your presence and competitors in those markets.
  • Ryan Brock is the author of the book “Pillar Based Marketing” and the CSO of Demand Jump, a marketing platform utilizing content marketing for SEO strategy.
  • Organic search traffic is considered high-quality and valuable for businesses, as it targets individuals actively searching for solutions to their problems.
  • Traditional SEO methods can be unpredictable and time-consuming, while pillar-based marketing offers a more strategic and data-driven approach.
  • Pillar-based marketing can expedite the SEO process, often achieving page-one rankings within a few hours to a few weeks, leading to increased visibility and traffic.
  • Businesses that benefit most from pillar-based marketing are those involved in considered purchases, where customers require research and self-education before making a decision.
  • Resources for learning more about pillar-based marketing include Ryan Brock’s book, “Pillar Based Marketing,” his LinkedIn column called “The Pillar Column,” and Demand Jump University, which offers free access to courses and materials.


Ryan Brock

Demand Jump

(219) 688-4973




If you’re a business owner, you have to think in terms of markets and in terms of what your position in that market is and how you are capturing that market and who you’re up against and what it looks like and what it’s gonna take for you to reach the goals that you have. And I think what’s really cool about pillar based marketing is we’re saying for any topic, which seems like such a fuzzy and gray concept, but for any topic, There is a market for organic search traffic and we can know it, we can measure it, we can understand your presence in it versus your competitors.

And like thinking that way means that from the very start, if you’re focusing your business on your marketing spend, especially on that kind of a strategic thinking, you are gonna have an. An advantage over anybody who’s just going out there and trying things.

Hi, and welcome to the 91 Day Success podcast. I’m Jonathan, and I am thrilled today to have the author of the brand new book. We’ll get it held up here, see if we can see it without too much glare. There we go. Pillar based marketing. We’ll try to get. Hey Kim. I’m not very good at holding books up, but I’ve got Ryan Brock with me today, author of Pillar Based Marketing, and I bought the Kindle version.

I’ve got the soft cover on the way the Kindle just met Ryan. I love this book and I love the concept, and I’m so excited we have a chance to chat with you today. For people that don’t know who you aren’t familiar with the book yet, can you start with kind of a 32nd elevator pitch? Ryan, give us a little idea who you are and help the audience understand a little bit about you.

Yeah. First of all, thanks for reading the book and for the kind words about it. It still blows my mind. We’re only about a month away from publication, so blows my mind that people are reading this thing that I’ve never met and my ideas are being virally implanted in their skulls. I appreciate that.

But yeah, so my background, I am a writer first and foremost. I graduated college.

Sorry. Absolutely. That’s right. I know you’re actually joining us from Soldier Field, I believe, which is incredible. So thank you for that. Yeah, I, this is conference season in like book tour season, so I’m at a conference in Chicago that happens to be at Soldier Field. So we’re, I’m in like a giant empty concourse here, the club section, which is fun.

I grew up in Chicagoland as a Bears fan, so this is pretty cool for me. But anyway, Writer by passion, writer by education. Graduated from college, knew I wanted to write, didn’t know how to do it, didn’t know how to get a book feel or whatever, especially as a 22 year old, no nothing, no experience guy.

And I discovered the world of marketing and seo and almost immediately after someone started offering money for writing, which is all I wanted, I was like, I’m gonna start an agency because this is awesome, and hire all of my writer friends that also need work. And with no knowledge, no experience, and really, no.

I started an agency when I was 23 years old, a content marketing agency, and ran that for a little over 10 years before eventually selling it to demand jump where I’m at now and it’s demand jumps technology that sort of opened the doorway for the pillar based marketing methodology. Awesome. And I’m excited to hear about that journey and I know from.

Just some other podcast I’ve watched you’ve done and some reading about you. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you see yourself as a fiction writer, but yet you’ve got into the non-fiction side. Can you tell us a little bit about that journey, Ryan? Obviously I know you’ve got a passion for writing, but how did you make that transition from maybe a passion for fiction into just an amazing guide here?

And by the way, I want to compliment you. I love how you incorporate storytelling into this book. It’s not just a checklist of. Do this you, you’ve made it intriguing and exciting by weaving that in. I’m guessing that’s part of what you brought to the table because of your passion for fiction rating, but can you share that a little bit with us and how you made that transition?

Yeah, I made that transition painfully and forced force fiction. Love it. Every 18 year old who goes to college and wants to tell stories is going to be the writer of the next great American novel. That’s what I really wanted to do and I did in my years college and even after college, I was able to, I was able to publish quite a bit of short fiction in a lot of journals and magazines and things like that.

I enjoy just telling stories. I enjoy world building. I enjoy like scene dressing. Yep. Creating characters, helping just transport somebody to another place. That’s a cool delivery action happen in Miami here, and it’s just very hard to make a living doing that. And it was just as hard, maybe even harder.

What are we talking about here? 15 years ago when I was trying to do this for real, the publishing industry was just starting to freak out over he books and publishing and. A lot of people were starting to, to self-publish. And so you had this flood in all of the big digital book marketplaces like Amazon and Apple iBooks, I think it was called at the time.

Yep. Yep. And you had like your main industry, like actual published works that have all of the money and backing behind them at the top of the library and then. All of you unknown authors who I think all saw the internet as a great democratizer. I can get it. I write really good stuff. I can publish it and get it out to the world and find that you’re just buried under a bunch of other junks.

So actually I’ve been complaining about that to a few friends of mine. My best friend Josh, who was at the time, a designer, he’s a UX designer and. About how it was just very difficult to stand out. I think you’d noticed. And to find an agent or to find a publisher willing to take a risk on you or whatever.

So he came up with the idea to help me build like a portfolio of my work on the internet using HTML five, which was at the time very cutting edge technology. We’re talking like responsive and wow, animated and like super pretty. And because I’m a guy who takes. Excuse me, because I’m a guy who takes a small idea and blows it up out of proportion as soon as I fall in love with it.

I was like, we could help a lot of authors with this and we could actually go from just putting like little snippets to like making this our own digital publishing platform where we own the platform and can invest in writers that aren’t super well known, and we can use analytics and help them prove their audience.

So like right away. I was thinking about like how do I measure the impact of like my right and in order to build a company like that, because we decided to go ahead and turn it into a digital publishing startup. I needed to learn a lot about marketing, about business and general finance. I literally went out and bought a book called Accounting for Non-Accountants so I could start learning any of this stuff and the way that I figured out that I could get information I wanted from people who had.

Experience that I didn’t was say, Hey, we’ve got a company blog and we’re documenting the birth of this company and we’re interviewing really smart thought leaders and whatnot for stories to share with our audience authors and help them learn. Can I interview you for the blog? So I’d interviewed them. I would just ask them all the stuff that I needed to know in order to grow the business, but then I’d write really great flattering articles about these people and it didn’t take long for me to do that for a couple of different marketers.

And they’re just like, Oh, you’re really good at this and we need people, the write content for our business. Can we pay you to do that? I didn’t even know what that meant at the time, but I was like, yeah, you wanna, the whole point of this whole endeavor was to make money with writing and figure out how to get published.

You wanna start giving me money for that now and I get to practice. And I found actually that my fiction background was really good for business writing. Like it, I came in, I was able to work with different clients, learn. How to writing their voice, because that’s what I spent years learning in college, like practicing how to become other people in my writing.

Importantly, also, go to school for creative writing workshop. Your content. You’re working with other people all the time. You’re taking their feedback, you’re having to listen when they tell you what you wrote was trash, and throw it out and start over again. And you’re also learning to give feedback. So that means that you’re in a really good position to work with like clients who maybe don’t.

Wanna sugar coat everything they have to say, you got thicker skin. And as I started hiring writers to help me, I realized that as a team, if I hired creative writers, we all had that background of the workshop. So it was easy for us to, I dunno, I could look, write something and get it 90% of the way there, but then review it with the rest of my team and get it where it needs to go when my brain was stacked out.

So I was able to then build my agency around that understanding of. Writing is actually a team exercise. We all learn how to do it as a group when we’re young, and we do it that way here. And we hire people with creative writing backgrounds who know how to become other people with their voice, who understand how to make people feel things, as well as communicate information that sets us up to be really special in terms of the content agency.

So the transition was all about, I need to make money because my wife’s getting mad at me about not making money, but. It actually, I stumbled upon this entire need in this industry of marketing for like really good storytellers that wasn’t being met and was able to build an agency around it. Cause I had that fishing background.

So it all came together in the end. Yeah, so true. So true. You’ve done a great job and I, like I said, I love the book. Talk to us a little bit, so our audience is mainly business owners, business leaders, people like that. Entrepreneurs talk to us a little bit about that. They’re not probably as familiar with the concept of pillar based marketing is what I am.

Share without obviously giving away all of the information, but share a little bit about what that means and how does that benefit a business as they’re looking at creating their marketing campaigns and their content and things that are relevant to their audience. Yeah, so the highest level I think I can go, if a business can drive really good qualified traffic through organic search, that traffic is turned.

In terms of digital marketing is always going to be the best quality traffic you can get. Absolutely. When people are out there identifying themselves to the world as in need of a solution to a brand, it’s a stupid question. Maybe it’s a really complex one. But when people are asking those questions to search engines, they’re the opposite of people that we advertise to who don’t care about what we have to say or going about their business, and we’re trying to interact their day, get our message in front of them with these people.

They are ready for wisdom. They’re ready for experience, perspective, information. If you can get yourself to be the one that shows up at the top of search engine results, you are in a really good place to start driving. Just high quality traffic that can turn into high quality leads or repeat customers, or whatever it is you’re going after.

The problem, however, is up to this point, getting to page one of search results is a messy endeavor. The SEO industry, search engine optimization industry in general has been one that, it’s a black box. We’re playing a game. Where the rules aren’t abundantly clear, they can change at any minute. And the person who makes them is both our boss, the and our greatest enemy.

Enemy, right? Say, we don’t know. Yeah, absolutely. They tell us what they’re thinking, but only enough to where we can try to guess at what works and doesn’t. And so SEO for a long time has been a history of well find some exploit. Do this. If you get enough links back to your website, page one. Or if you write enough copy and cra enough keywords into it, you can drink well.

And over time it’s been a story of Google just like getting better, spotting who is actually in authority, who is actually communicating with the intent of helping people, and then who is just trying to sell something. And over time they’ve gotten better and better in that, which means that it’s just been kind of guesswork trying to figure out.

As a business, what are the things we need to write about in order to actually provide the insight that our audience needs? Which keywords should we target? Which mean what keywords are gonna drive the most volume if we end up bringing for them, and which ones are gonna drive people who look like they wanna make a purchase, if we wanna drive them?

And so you end up with this strategy that’s just cobbled together and it’s full of bias, it’s full of as a business. Here are the things I wanna talk about. Here are the things I think matter to my audience. The pillar based marketing and the technology that drives it is a complete shift away from thinking about these traditional trappings of seo and instead thinking about what the market is for traffic around the topic that your business cares about.

So what we’re encouraging and empowering you to do is to take a step back away from keyword lists and from all of these just checkbox things that you think you gotta do in order to rank well. And all these other things instead, say if we can analyze search behavior, specifically the recommendation engine that drives Google.

When you search for something on Google, you’re gonna find two, two positions down. There’s gonna be a bank of questions that people also ask, and then there’s gonna be related searches at the bottom of the first page. That’s Google’s way of saying, we understand what journey you’re on, and more times than not, when people are on your journey, they also go to places.

So that’s a really good, interesting contextual clue to like how people operate. And what we’ve discovered is you can actually look at that recommendation engine, start stepping away and getting a large amount of that data to the point where you can actually map the full network of questions and keywords that actually matter to the market around your topic.

And then you can figure out which ones matter the most, which ones are most likely. To be searched for across a dozen different journeys where they start and end in different places. People are looking for different things. It’s just a completely different methodology for understanding what it takes to become an authority on a topic, and by following the methodology, by creating a network of content that mirrors the network of search behavior all around your pillar topic.

That’s where the word pillar comes in. You’re able to actually signal both humans in the search engines. That you care about what people are wanting, what they’re looking for, and that you are focused not on just selling things, but giving it to them. In turn, what we’ve found is that people get to page one in a fraction of the time for multiple more keywords than they would have going about SEO in, in an old way.

So what we’ve really done is we’ve said now that really valuable organic search traffic. If you do this, if you do it right, if you follow the methodology in the book, that can be as predictable as like a paid advertising program for driving traffic to your website, which means that can stop spending quite so much money.

Not all of your money, but quite so much money. Yep. On interruptive ads that drive worse leads and instead, More predictably know what kind of content to write so that content comes visible and drives the traffic you need. And so it completely changes the go-to-market equation for any business, I think, and makes this something that you cannot ignore if you’re trying to grow and find your audience online.

No, I absolutely agree with your premise, and again, like I said, I’m a huge fan of the concept and we’re implementing that a lot in our agency for our clients. One of the things that I thought things, that’s interesting. You talked in another podcast that I was watching recently, and I agree with you as people that do SEO in the agency world, one of the hardest things from our side is often explaining to the client that SEO is an investment.

It’s not a switch. It’s something that is gonna take some time. Do you see that the pillar based marketing concept as it relates to SEO helps shorten that timeframe historically? As an industry, we’re always telling clients it, it takes a year. You’ve gotta be willing to invest for at least a year. And that’s hard as you, because I often tell our clients 90 days into this s e O project, you are going to think you’ve wasted all of your money.

By six months you’re gonna be wondering, but maybe not positive. And by a year you’re gonna be happy. Do you see pillar based marketing expediting that process at all, or what are your thoughts on that, Ryan? It expedites it incredibly, and it’s why I sold my agency to demand jump in order to tell the story of pillar based marketing and the technology.

So like I, I’d become a customer demand jump when I found the technology, which is just completely different from what, some rush or a mods or anybody else because of that way that we’re analyzing search behavior. So the recommendations we’re giving and then what I was able to do with that myself and others at demand job.

In order to like experiment over time and see what really matters and what doesn’t, what do we just think matters when it comes to SEO and what, what really matters? And we arrived at a methodology that is pretty repeatable. It’s pretty understandable, it’s clear it’s gonna lead you to do things that maybe you wouldn’t.

You’re gonna write articles that seem elementary for your audience, are maybe not a perfect one-to-one alignment with what you’re trying to sell. But in doing so, you’re going to make it possible for every piece of content in your network on a topic to rank better and rank faster. And because of this, what we found, and this is why I think in the joke I earned the book, I joke a lot about how like I had a full head of hair when I started Autonomy Media, and I got really stressed out trying to fight that battle that you’re talking about over six months to a year.

Trying to convince clients to keep spending money on something that’s not driving any returns. And if we’re lucky will in a year, but it’s only gonna be a portion of what we’ve written that actually drives any traffic we’re gonna have. Andrew. It’s very difficult. It’s, we’ve all had this like agreement, it’s okay to waste time and energy and money here.

And so I found data that I thought could help me make better creative decisions and it turned out that it could. And I went from having to have that conversation every day to asking clients to give me like six weeks, give me six weeks to write some content and publish it. And you’re gonna see the results that normally you wouldn’t see until a year in.

And we’re at a point now where I have to sandbag because if I get too aggressive with the promises that I make about fill waste marketing and what it can do, people write it off. It’s like another one of these Hollow silver bullet magic fixes for SEO that we’ve heard about in the past, but it’s not.

It is a very common occurrence for me to watch a company that’s never done pillar based marketing, figure out their first pillar of content, follow our instructions, write it, get it already and publish it, and then within four or five hours please start earning page one rankings. Wow. Five days is pretty average at this point.

Certainly within two weeks you’ll start seeing, we call it the hockey stick if like it goes Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Up, up, and to the right, and you’ll start seeing that. Now, the numbers that represents is gonna differ depending on your company, the amount of content you’re writing, where you’re going, but. If you have a budget to write 16 pieces of content, which is what I say you start with, because the creates that network effect, those 16 pieces of content.

Normally if you were operating in the old world, you would write them maybe one at a time. You would publish them maybe once a week. So first of all, you’re a quarter in just to get the whole batch of content out. Maybe you’re half that if you’re like publishing two articles a week. But man, it’s a big, it’s a big learning curve to let go of the calendar and doing that on a regular basis by writing it all at once and dropping it all at once.

You get there faster just because the whole thing starts appreciating and value faster. But the last time I did a pillar strategy for demand Jump, it was in October, we decided to target a brand new pillar that we’ve never done anything on SaaS content because we like SaaS companies. Yep. We wrote 28 pieces of content.

Day one, we published 14. Within five days, we had over a hundred page one rankings, actually driving traffic. So not just like some rankings, but these were traffic generating rankings. Three weeks in, published the other 14. By that point we were at like 200, I think, page one rankings, and then within six weeks, maybe seven weeks at most broached 500.

Page one rankings with this content. And so is 28 pieces a lot of content? Yeah, it certainly is, and that’s gonna be an investment from anybody. But in the first three months after that content was published, we did the math, we ended up getting what would’ve been annualized, like $150,000 worth of paid traffic.

But it was all through this organic content that we had to invest in once and publish once, and now it just keeps going. It keeps going. Yeah. I say the benefit. Organic though. It keeps paying you back. It’s not like an ad that when you stop paying for the ad, it goes away. That organic context’s still working for you.

Now, what are we talking? Nine months later, eight months later, it’s still working for demand jump because it’s there and it’s every day. It’s findable. Huge value. Yeah, and I think at this point we’re over like 700 page one rankings for that topic network. So when I like it’s all keywords that we’ve identified as being super critical, as being connected.

And by connected we mean across two random journeys where somebody starts with a charm and ends with a different term or different webpage as they learn about a topic. These are all terms that tend to show up often across all these different journeys. So none of these are not valuable. A lot of them would be presented because they’re questions as like zero traffic keywords because Google doesn’t get traffic estimates on questions.

A lot of them seem elementary, a lot of them seem different, but aggregate all 700 of those. It is a significant amount of traffic we’re driving. And it generates leaves for us. And it does it like, back to the original question, it does it in a few weeks. Like we start benefiting from that in days, and then a few weeks later, a few weeks later, it just keeps getting better and better.

Six months a year, we don’t even, by that point, we won’t even be thinking about this anymore. We’ll, So exciting. So as you look at pillar based marketing, from your perspective, are there businesses of different sizes, Ryan, that can benefit or different industries or what kind of companies do you think benefit most from pillar based marketing?

The phrase I like to use is considered purchase. If you are selling something that involves a considered, somebody has to research, they have to really think about it because it’s either a big purchase or it’s a complicated one. Maybe there’s specific technical stuff involves. Maybe there are real big like questions about what priorities you have.

This could be b2b, b2c. This could be you’re selling a product or a service. What matters is you’re selling something that really lends itself well. Self-education. As part of the buying journey, we really like with demand jump, which is, I keep talking about demand jump because built this platform to facilitate this methodology.

So they’re tied hand in hand. And so we’ve obviously had a lot of experience running companies through the pillar raise marketing program. And like our favorites to work with would be like b2b, a considered purchase. We really think that works really well. But we’ve done e-commerce, we’ve done two person mom and pop shops.

We’ve done some of the biggest companies you’ve ever heard of. It works across the board. The one thing that’s been a little bit tricky for us to figure out over the years has been local seo. We think that we’re finally starting to get a critical mass of data, that we have a direction for how to go there, but when somebody’s, I only want to drive traffic in Raleigh, yes, it’s a little bit tougher.

It’s this is so effective. You’re gonna drive traffic from other places, and that’s sometimes not great. Someone with a really local presence to wanna invest elsewhere. But other than that, It’s pretty good across the board. I love that considered purchase concept. I lo I like that and, I think that really is valuable for business owners that are listening to think about, okay, is that where I fit in?

How can they do that other than buying the book? Ryan, let me ask, if business owners are watching this and they’re going, wow, how do I learn more about this whole concept of pillar based marketing? What are your recommendation? Obviously, first recommendation, I’m gonna tell you point blank. Buy the book.

It’s fantastic. If I can bring it it’s not gonna come up on my iPad, but by the book. What other suggestions do you have or resources can you share that would be valuable as people are trying to learn about pillar based marketing? Yeah, so I have a column, a weekly newsletter on LinkedIn called The Pillar Column because I just, I like puns and that was the first idea that popped into my head.

I love it. And it’s a weekly column where we talk about, All of the mindset shifts that happen when you start embracing pillar based marketing and start walking away from like more traditional seo. That’s a really good resource. Picking up steam. I’ve only been doing it for about two months, but it’s picking up steam really fast.

There’s a big community growing around It also Demand Jump University is a, it’s an online learning platform that I built around pillar based marketing. You can get a free demand jump account and oh, that’s all you need. If you just go to university dot demand jump.com, you’ll create an account which also will double as a free account on the demand jump platform.

So you can start experimenting with the data and seeing what that network of search behavior looks like around the topics you care about, the pillar topics you’re interested in. But with that free account, you’ll also be able to get access to a few dozen courses and hours of material. A lot of my face and a lot of me rambling about.

How to specifically go about the word of choosing a pillar topic, building a pillar, strategy, writing pillar content, publishing it, and watching results. I love it. I absolutely love it. That’s fantastic. Last question I gotta ask you related to this is as a selfish question, as an agency, Do you guys offer any type of certification or partner program with agencies that are adopting and working with Demand Jump to deliver this type of stuff?

Or is that something in the works that may be coming down the road? We offer both. So we have in-demand Job University, you can get certified as a strategist, a writer, or as a specifically an agency reseller of Demand jump. So we have certifications for all of that. And then we have a partner program for agencies.

Specifically where we worked to help co-sell and resell the software because it’s on a domain by domain basis. Sure. And then enable and empower and support agencies with education to get them delivering and driving these kinds of results really fast for their clients. I can see we’re gonna have a few additional discussions coming down the road then, cuz.

That’s fantastic. I love it. Ryan, one of the things before we go, and I think I know where you’re gonna head with the answer, but we call this the 91 Day Success podcast because one of the things we love to do is we love to ask our guests, if you had to start over and as an entrepreneur and an agency owner, I’m sure you’ve had this thought before.

If you had to start over and you only had a thousand bucks, you had your laptop, you had your house, you had all the things you needed to live, but you had a thousand dollars to build the business. What would you do as Ryan in the first 91 days or three months to build that business? Yeah, it is an obvious answer, isn’t it?

But me, Ryan, what I would do is I would grab a free or a trial account to demand job, and I would get what I needed to build a pillar of content, and I would reserve maybe $200 of that. To immediately drive some traffic to that new pillar content that I’m ready to. I would focus because I, if I was starting a new business, I would be I’d be marketing to either agencies or small businesses, probably trying to work on some pillar based marketing strategy, consulting, that sort of thing.

Sure. Makes sense. But either way, I would be driving traffic. I’d make sure that to pick a topic that’s going to get me some interested traffic around what it is I have to offer I would probably try to grab a little bit of that money and go to a real world event, a conference I’m going to like. Great idea.

I think I told you I’m on the tour now since the book launched. I was in St. Louis a few weeks ago. New York last week, Chicago this week. Two weeks I’m going to Atlanta, then Toronto, then San Diego, then Vegas, Boston, bc, all over the place. And every single time I go to a real world event, like maybe it just, it’s amazing.

I think after Covid especially, like we’re all hungry for that connection and what better way to meet somebody, shake at hand, start a conversation. So I would be doing that and I would.

I’d probably start over where I was. If you have any marketing know-how, any marketing background or have someone support that, just start talking to people and write. Just write content about them and you’re gonna start building relationships really fast that way. With all that combined, I think within just, I don’t know, maybe.

30, 40 days, I’d probably be in a position to be taking on my first client, my first customers. I would expect to be able to do that if I was focusing my money and my time there. Fantastic. No, I love it and that’s great and it’s so cool to talk to somebody that actually has a system already and it’s ready to go, so I really appreciate that.

Ryan, I want to thank you for your time that I know you’re super busy and I wanna wish you the best of luck on the book tour. Before we go, I’m gonna try to get this to show once again here. I wanna encourage everybody. If you’re serious, buy the book. It’s fantastic. Ryan is not only knowledgeable on pillar based marketing, but he’s also a great storyteller.

And the way in which Ryan presents this makes this very readable and an actionable book from a business owner’s perspective. Take a look at that and then pre the hard copy. Get that ready and go from there. Ryan, is there anything else you’d like to share with the audience before we wrap things up?

Ju just thank you for having me and shout out to Tof Day my co-author, who I realize now what, 30 minutes in that I never mentioned being a single time, but when I said other people demand jump, he was the guy who bought my agency from me and built demand jump into what it was when I found it. Just a wonderful human being, a great partner, and someone who’s vision helped lead to this becoming what it is.

That’s awesome. Toes. He’s a good guy to follow. He’s the president of Elevate Ventures, which is the most active VC arm in the Great Lakes region. Really? Oh wow. Cool. If you’re in a business and tech, you should definitely check him out. Christopher Day on LinkedIn. And yeah, Jonathan, you’ll love getting your hard copy of the book, cuz it’s a math finish so you can hold it up to as many cameras as you want.

I’ll take pictures and send them As. But thank you so much. Thanks for having me and thanks for sharing the book. It makes my heart warm to see you going out there and connecting with so many people. So I really love the book. I love the concept. I’m so grateful for your time, Ryan. Thank you. So I wanna thank everybody else for watching the podcast.

If you’ve stuck with us through the end. This has been a huge value drop today. Tons of value. We’re gonna put all of Ryan’s contact information that, how to get ahold of him, how to buy the book, all that. That’ll all be here. Click on those links. Follow Ryan. And if you’re like me, I didn’t know about the newsletter, I’m gonna go sign up for that next.

So make sure you keep in touch. Cool. With that, make it a great day everybody, and we’ll see you on the other side.

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